Nik Mohanlal (00:00)
just give me quick.
Boom, Anya, welcome to the podcast. How's it going? It's the first time we've ever met. Cool. Yeah. So as I mentioned previously, this podcast is really aimed towards those who don't know much about this market, know, new starters, new grads.
Anya (00:06)
Hi, what a surprise. Yes.
Nik Mohanlal (00:24)
And I'm super excited to have you on because you're someone who does have that level of experience. You have that insight. You know a lot about a lot of people because you do. You meet a lot of people. You yourself are a recruiter, but you're also a lot more than that. Right. So let me just hand you the torch, you know, introduce yourself.
Anya (00:34)
That's right, that's right. I do.
Sure. So I'll just, I won't start with my date of birth or anything, but I'll jump into the Middle East bit. So I moved to Dubai nearly 10 years ago now. And I was one of the first cyber security recruiters in the Middle East. So just like any other recruiter, I fell into it. It wasn't a dream job of mine when I was five years old, but it's something that happened. And at the time I had this fantastic manager called John.
Nik Mohanlal (00:47)
No.
Anya (01:11)
And we just basically went around the C level people around Dubai and Abu Dhabi and just see what's necessary at the time, right? So at the time it was three main areas that people struggled to recruit in. It was data, was UX, UI, and it was cyber security. And so out of all of those three, cyber security is what caught my attention. So then I did a course on Coursera just to understand very basic stuff of how it works.
And then I got really, really lucky because very early on I was introduced to Rami and I got involved in 971Sec and it was a fantastic, fantastic, yes, fantastic community that's really, really supportive. And this is one thing that I really, really love about cybersecurity recruitment is because the community, everyone is so helpful. Everyone is so lovely. Everyone's trying to help each other. It's really, really nice.
Nik Mohanlal (01:48)
an absolute king.
like you said earlier, at the start, you said you kind of just fell into it, right? What about recruitment kept you going?
Anya (02:10)
Mm-hmm.
It's the people, I mean, I'm going to be this really, really cliche person, but it's extremely rewarding to put someone good in a good position, right? Because again, sorry for sounding so cliche, but you're changing people's lives. You know what I mean? Like I brought so many people over from other countries and moved people to better positions. you know, since I've been here, had like guys that had families and we go into this whole, you know, family packages when it was still around and you know, all these things, it's very...
Nik Mohanlal (02:16)
Mm.
Mm-mm.
Anya (02:44)
Very nice. I think like, to be honest, so the candidates is what's the best about this job and the companies and HR, it's the worst bits about this job. But it's just the reality of it. Yes, yes. They just, the companies that I find the recruitment process in the Middle East, all of Middle East is very broken. Obviously I'm based in Dubai, so UAE is, it's just, it's so crazy in the last.
Nik Mohanlal (02:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anya (03:10)
10 years. So it's gone from once really slow, nobody's making decision to now 15 different stages, videos, psychometric tests. It's insane. It's like, it's just crazy. It's like, why are having so much red tape? you know, it shouldn't be that difficult.
Nik Mohanlal (03:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, no, honestly, like that's my experience as well, because for a long time, UAE was, you know, it always has been this tax free zone of, know, it's attractive for lot of people because of the sans the tax and, you know, it's good salaries and whatnot. And it still has persisted. But back then, you mentioned the the family packages, you know, the benefits were really that was the thing that was attracting, not just the lack of tax and.
Anya (03:40)
Mm-hmm.
That's right.
Nik Mohanlal (03:55)
just on the process point of view as well, even for myself, when I first moved here, it was kind of it was a wasta thing. But still, I remember applying when I was when I was still in my placement year, late university era. I wanted to I wanted to move out here to Dubai. My family is here. I've got friends here. I thought, me get involved on this on this train. And in doing so, you made a good point, because that's something I saw as well, that there wasn't really a
Anya (04:03)
Mm-hmm.
Nik Mohanlal (04:25)
a heavy process. wasn't any, you know, go through this form, go through that form and you're done. You know, it was just, it was a very basic process, but unfortunately it was still broken at the time, right?
Anya (04:36)
It was still broken
for sure. was very basic. was, as you said, who you know, absolutely. I mean, honestly, to be honest, it's still like this, I think, but it's in any country, by the way, know, it's connections are connections. This is why networking is so important. Plug in 971Sec just again. But yeah, no, it was, was broken at the time, but I mean, look, I think there is a point of which are to make the process is good. And I think there is.
a reason behind the madness of psychometric tests. I don't see it personally. For me, it's just too much red tape. it's just, you know, like personally, I would not sit through something. And I mean, I know we're on video right now, but I wouldn't sit and make a video of myself talking about my experience. I've already sent you my CV. I've already put everything in your ATS. Like, my God, read. Stop it. Who has time?
Nik Mohanlal (05:16)
Mm.
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, why would
companies do that in that case? Because I agree with you. You gave it good analogy. It's lot of red tape. It's a lot of barriers. There are a lot of companies here that add extra barriers and some sprinkles and it's completely unnecessary. I just never felt, like I said, I echo the same feeling.
Anya (05:37)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Let's try it.
Nik Mohanlal (05:51)
With that in mind, what would you expect a good company or a good organization to do when it comes to recruitment? What would that process look like?
Anya (06:00)
It'll be so easy. Well, I guess, guess, look, it depends on seniority, of course, but it will, for me, right, okay, it'll be three stages. First of all, it'll be with the hiring manager. Then it will be with HR and team members, or it will depend, but no more than three. If the person have to meet more than three people, you can do a panel interview. And panel, you know, I've actually sat in quite a few panel interviews and they always felt quite aggressive.
Like I know it's an interview, but I think you know everyone needs to come down a little bit with this one. But yeah, so basically three stages That's it No psychometric tests, know, I mean look if it's tech things maybe a tech test of some sort But that's it I mean as I said the amount of stuff companies is asking for now is insane like business plans and You know three days of work and you do it for free, right? Like all these tests it takes time. Do you know what I mean? And then another thing is right?
Nik Mohanlal (06:31)
Mm-mm-mm. Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Mm-mm-mm. Yeah. Yeah.
Anya (06:57)
Now, obviously, AI is in picture. So for me, I find it quite funny, right? Because the job descriptions are written by AI, ChatGPT I'm just going to say, right? So ChatGPT, and then the CVs are written by ChatGPT. it's like, yeah, exactly. So really, you know, I know I'm going to sound a bit old school, but the whole thing, you know, why I like recruitment is because I meet all the candidates, the ones that I can, meet all of them, right? And in the end of the day, you want to hire someone that you like, right? Because you want to work with them. it's, you know,
Nik Mohanlal (07:08)
Mm-hmm. It's just AI versus AI.
Yeah. Yeah.
Anya (07:26)
if somebody is really technically gifted or really, good and he's still not, I'm not going to swear on this podcast that he's not fun to work with, he's not a good person. If he's not a good person to work with, you don't want to hire this person, right? So I guess this is the thing in AI, like I mean, it's fantastic as it is now, it's not there to determine those bits. And I think this is why you have to have those interviews, you have to have these calls and you have to...
Nik Mohanlal (07:35)
You're good to swear, don't worry. I can censor it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Mm-mm.
Anya (07:53)
Unless, you know, this is why we can't just hire just looking by on CV, right?
Nik Mohanlal (07:57)
Is this back on? Yeah, we're good. Yeah. Sorry about that. Yeah, I saying AI was a good point actually. That's again, and this is why I wanted to have you on, right? Because
Anya (07:59)
Yeah. Nice. Bye bye.
Mm-hmm.
Nik Mohanlal (08:15)
recruitment tends to get a bad rap. Right. Certainly from me. And I'm sure there are others who, I'm sure there are others who echo that feeling as well, but I've had bad recruiters I've worked with and I've had really good recruiters I've worked with. Right. And the ones I felt that stand out the most is the ones that you said, the ones who focus on the people, right. They're the ones who tend to
Anya (08:17)
Mm-hmm. Sounds about your life.
Mm-hmm.
Nik Mohanlal (08:42)
really push them best selves forward. doesn't mean best selves doesn't have to look like, I've got all the certs, I've got all of this. It's more like this is who I am. If you can kind of sell or pitch yourself to that recruiter, they can vouch for you. Am I correct in that kind of, is that the process that you would expect to see?
Anya (08:50)
Mm. Yeah.
Absolutely, absolutely. mean, look, I know recruiters get a bad rep, but the thing is you have to understand the amount of people that get in touch on a daily basis is insane, right? So you cannot be good to everyone. And I'm sure there are a lot of people out there that would say Anya is a rubbish recruiter. Like she does not get. But because for me, look, this is how I see it. And this is going to sound really selfish. But for me, I can only help people that I can help. Right. And so when I see a candidate,
And I think, know what? I think I can either place him right now or I can place him in the future for sure. If it's someone that I'm like, there's a really tiny chance I can ever do it because you know, this, this industry in this region, they really like certain things, right? So for example, when you hire for a bank, they want someone with a bank experience. When you hire for oil and gas, they want someone with an oil and you know, whether skills are transferable or not, of course, but here in this region,
We like very industry focused people. So when I have someone who is a jack of all trades, but not from consultancy background, but he was sort of here and there, I know that for me, it'll be really difficult to place him because the competition is insane. You know what mean? That we don't lack talent in this region and people are still coming. So for me, with this person, I will ignore him, unfortunately. Or I'll say, you know, I don't have anything and that is it because I know
Nik Mohanlal (09:58)
Yeah.
Anya (10:21)
I don't want to waste my time not doing it, but I'd rather spend my time helping people that I think I actually can, if that makes sense. but also you have to remember that recruiters are working with different companies as well, right? So I will not have certain clients and other recruits as well. And they will have different sort of candidates on their list or whatever, on their, I don't know how to say, on their short list of people that they'd want to talk to. You know what I mean?
Nik Mohanlal (10:27)
Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, of course. Go ahead.
for sure. that's a really good point because recruiters do see a lot of people. have, I think, especially when those who are starting out early, you know, if it is someone from like an IT engineer position trying to move into a different role or something, or someone who doesn't have that much experience in climbing the corporate ladder or understanding the network or how to network, they would typically see the recruiter as a kind of the gateway into
Anya (10:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nik Mohanlal (11:17)
that industry, right? And because there's a lot of interest in this field, the recruits tend to get bombarded with a lot. And I think it's important to remember that they are, like you said, it's important to remember that you're getting a lot of profiles, a lot of people coming through. Your job isn't just to go through that, but to talk to these people. And it's tiring, right?
Anya (11:18)
Mm.
That's right.
That's right. That's right. Right.
It is overwhelming sometimes, but you know what advice I would give someone that is starting out? The thing is, right, I'll just tell you how I see it, right? So for recruiters, we hardly ever get paid for a junior position, right? So most of our positions will be mid to senior because recruitment costs money, right? So the company would not want to pay us to hire a graduate.
You know what I mean? So if you're starting out, if you're trying to move, your best way to do it is to go internally and go through your manager and see if you can sort of, well, if you're already in the company to see if you can do some things, I would say, related to take courses and whatnot. If you're a fresher again, your way would probably not be through recruitment agency, but maybe, you know, trying to get experience. mean, you know, if you go back to doing courses and certs and certs are fantastic, but again, certs cost money, right?
So this is all great, but what anyone would look for is whether you can do the job or not, right? And for you to be able to do the job, you need to go and do it and get a hands-on experience. And this is the only thing you can do. And if you are, if you can, if you're in university, if you really started out trying to get internships, you know, trying to use all the wastas that you have and get, you know, get that experience because this will get you your job. Recruiters, no, you know, they just don't have those positions.
Nik Mohanlal (12:39)
Yeah, pretty much.
Yeah.
I was gonna say you mentioned something interesting there actually I wanted to pick upon but I forgot what it was. No, not at all, you have a lot of insight, that's why you're on here. No, it's to do with the, I guess the perspective of someone who's quite young, right? Someone who's like a new grad or someone who wants to learn about this industry.
Anya (13:05)
Not that interesting.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nik Mohanlal (13:24)
someone who doesn't have the opportunity to go through a recruitment agency and find that job that they want, that graduate job. There's a lot of things that they can do. Like you said yourself, you did a course on Coursera just to understand the network, but you were still in a very particular position at the time. I wanna pick your brain a little bit about branding, especially with younger guys or younger, you guys or girls in this space. This kind of...
Anya (13:37)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Nik Mohanlal (13:53)
This is to do with branding and networking and the importance of it because you mentioned earlier, can someone improve that skill set? Because it doesn't have to be just cyber related, especially now in 2025 here in UAE, what are some of the things that you do?
Anya (14:06)
Yeah. Do you know,
I think that would be really difficult now because everyone's doing the same. If you go on LinkedIn, you just see all the ChatGPT generated posts nonstop, it's not really, think, I mean, look, personal branding is important. think if it comes, not actually, but I guess talk about things that interest you.
Nik Mohanlal (14:15)
Mm.
Yeah.
Anya (14:31)
That'd be quite cool about certain things you find out. Like, you know what I find really cool? Like sometimes I'll get series, especially from like, I don't know, pentesters or something. And they'll always mention like a cool thing that they've done. And it's always interesting, right? Because it's like, wow. Okay. And you can always, by the way, you know, in any interview, the first thing you notice is how passionate the person is about what they do. Right. And you can tell because they get excited about things and you go, know, cyber security is not always that sexy, but you can see when someone is like super, super pumped. Right. So.
Nik Mohanlal (14:42)
Mm.
Yeah.
Anya (15:01)
If you're going to go the branding route, yeah, for sure, post about things you're interested in, even if it's sort of like about the news and stuff, but like what's your opinion about, you know, get your authentic self. It's a big buzzword, right, these days, but yeah, be authentically you and that's great. But with the region, and this is by the way, KSA, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, everywhere, networking is extremely important. And...
Nik Mohanlal (15:15)
Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah.
Anya (15:27)
I know there are introverted people that don't like socializing, you if you want to get far anywhere, whatever position in cybersecurity you have, by the way, being good with people is always going to be a plus, right? And socializing and, but you know, by going to all these events and meeting people, you find out what's happening in the industry. It's not just jobs, you know, like even if you don't get a job from someone you've met.
they might tell you, you know, someone might have something or they'll tell you the state of the market. You're really struggling with this microphone. No, it's professional setup. Love it. It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Back to the point. Yeah. Networking is important. And everyone should network. You know, I think especially after COVID people do not like meeting.
Nik Mohanlal (15:56)
I need an arm, I swear. No, this thing is bouncing on a tissue box.
Sorry.
Anya (16:19)
People don't like coffees anymore, not like they used to 10 years ago. I used to have like 20 coffees a day back in the day. Now everyone's like, oh, you know, come on Zoom or whatever it is. If you're young, go out and meet people. Get off your phone. I'm not such an old lady now, but get off your phone and go meet people.
Nik Mohanlal (16:24)
Hehehe.
Yeah, no, no, honestly.
This is something I say as well. Like predominantly in this space. It's, know, where we're stuck behind the screen. It's inevitable even before COVID like you're you're you're either coding away, doing something or writing policies or, you know, sitting at your desk, not talking to people. And that's the nature of our work. You can't really avoid it. But
Anya (16:44)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nik Mohanlal (16:57)
This is something I really echo as well because through that, you will discover new things. That's how I first met you guys. That's how I met you, I met Rami, how I got involved with 971Sec. I felt that there wasn't a strong community for me here because I came here not knowing anyone. I was about to quit and leave this country.
Anya (17:03)
Mm-hmm. That's right. Mm.
Mmm.
Look at you now. Yeah.
Nik Mohanlal (17:19)
And through that, yeah, look at me now. I've got this crappy little boom. And
so that's, it's a tough thing to do, you know, and especially for introverts, it's really, really difficult. And I felt like I was also that person. I never had that drive to go out and network and I was so nervous and you know, I, man, I'll be honest, the first time I went to that 971 SAC meetup
I had the craziest panic attack. It was horrible. Yeah. And it not with anything, something, it was just a lot of stuff to deal with. but, know, through that, I did learn a lot more. I got to speak to a few people. got a couple of numbers, you know, it doesn't matter. I never got a job out of it. And that wasn't the intention, but the fact that I knew that these people existed is what was exciting.
Anya (17:47)
no, no.
Yeah
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it is. mean, look, the more you go, the easier it becomes. Right. And then you just basically meeting up with friends. Right. So the thing is with 971 Sec, especially because now it's a big event, right. It's a sponsored event now when so back in the day when it started, it was very, very community oriented. Right. So we used to have coffees and it was, I don't know, five, six of us. Right. On Thursdays in the morning. So I think if you're struggling with the big groups, I mean, this is not an issue. Right. So
Nik Mohanlal (18:17)
Yeah.
Anya (18:38)
You can do a breakaway groups, And just say like, as I said, it's just, even if it's, you want to meet one person, go on LinkedIn, find someone that you find, I don't know, exciting or someone cool or whatever, or he works or she works for the company that you want to work for. And do invite them for a coffee. As I said, it's just, it depends on your personality, I suppose, and what you want to achieve, but it doesn't have to be this massive events, right? It doesn't have to be GISECS and GITEX of this world, or even 971Secs. It could literally just be coffees and shishas and...
Nik Mohanlal (19:02)
Yeah. 100%.
That's how I met Rami as well, actually. He got me into 971, because I pitched to him on LinkedIn. I'm like, hey, do you have any spaces on your team? He's like, no, sorry, but join my group. Okay, yeah.
Anya (19:17)
But then you go. But look, can
attest to this because it's a great community. It's fantastic.
Nik Mohanlal (19:23)
Yeah, exactly. It's fantastic. I've
always tell people about it. I've seen how it's helped me and I really wanted to help others. You know, all my friends are in that group now, you know, people who never even knew this existed. So I'm happy that this community is growing because there is a lack of it in this this industry here, especially in UAE.
Anya (19:31)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
for sure. No, it's a fantastic thing. People should do it more. you know, yes, there's a one second is very important. But if you are a French graduate, you know, get your university involved, get your course people involved, get your groups, do things together, you know, share the knowledge. Sharing information is one of the most important things in cybersecurity, think. You know, so.
Nik Mohanlal (19:57)
Mm-hmm.
Anya (20:04)
Start early. Start sharing confidentially. But you know, share the info.
Nik Mohanlal (20:05)
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I want to take
a little step back actually, more about yourself as a person, right? You are a recruiter. You talk to a lot of people. You're very sociable at any point because you work in this industry. Have you ever felt a little bit of imposter syndrome when it comes to the technical stuff? Were you ever a techie nerd? Were you ever a techie hacker person?
Anya (20:15)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yes.
No. No. Absolutely
not. Absolutely not. But the reason why I wanted to be in the tech recruitment is because before I came I was doing tech sales. So I was always in that sort of space, but never, never a techie person. No, not really. Not a nerd. But I do, you know, you don't have to be super techie to be in this space. I mean, it's important, right?
Obviously for recruitment, you definitely don't, but also like there's so many different areas that you can get involved in, right? There's data protections, GRCs and your marketing, your cybersecurity awareness things. don't really need like, no. I mean, to be honest, the only time that felt a bit out of water is when, you know, one of these events, get, sometimes they get really, really techy, but most of the time I can follow. And as I said, because I enjoy it, I do read a lot of stuff on cyber and...
Nik Mohanlal (21:07)
Yeah.
yeah.
Anya (21:24)
I listen to podcasts and all that stuff. can get by, I suppose.
Nik Mohanlal (21:29)
Nice. Well, fair enough. We ever considered doing a certification?
New ones are coming out. You do? Hell yeah. Which ones?
Anya (21:34)
I do have certifications, actually. Yes, from...from
ISC2
it's, it's actually on building cyber security teams. No, no, I did, I did. I think it's up, but I don't know how much I will need it again, like I can get by like I get the basics, but I don't think in what I do, I kind of need it. And also, obviously, I haven't mentioned I am a partner of another company. And we also have
Nik Mohanlal (21:48)
Makes sense, makes sense.
Mm-mm.
Anya (22:09)
MSSP and Pentesters, data protection and all this guys. So I think I have a lot on my hands at the moment. There you go.
Nik Mohanlal (22:16)
Exactly. This is a good segue into this actually, because I want to talk to you about this.
because you've been a recruiter for a long time. This is you. People know Anya as the recruiter, but you're more than just that, right? You do have this partnership with MSSP. Tell us more about that. What's that all about?
Anya (22:23)
Bye. Yes.
That's right. That's right.
Yes. Yes. So basically,
basically what happened. So right, when I came and when I was starting recruitment, I was recruiting internally mostly. So basically, as we mentioned, oil and gas, insurance, banks, all internal stuff. And then when COVID happened, all the recruitment internally stopped. Obviously, cyber attacks did not. So companies would spend more on vendors and consultancies.
So these guys have became my clients. And what I've noticed, I'm not sure if I should talk about this really, but anyway, what I've noticed is that they will go to companies and they will sell their name. Like let's say Nik's Consultancy and you go in and you will say, I'm Nik's Consultancy and this is the services, blah, blah. And then these are the people that will be doing it. And when they win the contract, they will come to me and I will be hiring those people, right? So like, okay, so really.
They just run the people. They're just going under the Nik's consultancy, they're getting paid, you know, they get paid X, but Nik's consultancy is getting paid a lot more just because of the name, if that makes sense. So then I was like, well, if we're doing this anyway, why don't we have our own SOC right? So because also at the time I have placed a lot of C level guys. So
Nik Mohanlal (23:40)
Yeah, yeah.
Anya (23:52)
know, CISOs around the region. And then at some point they will come to me as well and they say, you know, who'd you recommend? And then at some point I'm like, well, myself. there you go. So this is how it started. So we do have a SOC. It's based in the UK though. We have 26 people there and then we have five people in the Middle East. Yes, yes. It's very good. 24-7. Obviously I'm biased. They're great.
Nik Mohanlal (23:54)
Yeah.
is.
Mm.
Wow.
Of course, mean, this is the opportunity to plug it, right? Yeah.
Anya (24:19)
There you go, you go. Call me.
Nik Mohanlal (24:21)
Nice.
Anya (24:24)
No, it's really good. It's really good. look, services I do enjoy, but they're not as rewarding as recruitment. can tell you this. Nobody calls you and tell you thank you for charging us for the SOC. Nobody tells you thank you for preventing anything, right? They're just...
Nik Mohanlal (24:37)
Nah, they just said, okay,
here's an email, done,
Anya (24:43)
yeah, exactly, exactly. Like you know when a
place how about people like will bring you bottles of wine, chocolates and all that stuff. I know with services you get another. Just another.
Nik Mohanlal (24:50)
Wow, nice. Man, man, I don't get any of that.
I just get told off.
Anya (25:00)
So you get into recruitment, eh? Oh no, the thing is, I don't know, the amount of recruiters I've seen now, especially in Dubai, it's like insane. It's crazy. Like when we started, it was just me and Barry, really. Barry, I don't know if you guys know who Barry is, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was just me and Barry, that's it, yeah, yeah. So we were literally like, you know, we had the same sort of contacts and it was, you know, it's cool.
Nik Mohanlal (25:08)
Mm.
Yeah, Barry Martin. Yes, he's a G. He's a G. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Anya (25:23)
And now
there's like a hundred, a hundred. When I was looking like, I think after COVID, there were like 14 cybersecurity recruiters. And I know for a fact there's no enough jobs for 14 cybersecurity recruiters. But yeah, mean, like job market is insane at the moment.
Nik Mohanlal (25:35)
Yeah.
do you think it's going now? Because I have friends struggling to move from their current positions and these guys are absolute monsters of what they do. And I'm not just biased, I'm objectively saying this, not just their CV, I've seen what they do outside of work, I know they have the capabilities to join the best of the best over here, yet
Anya (25:45)
Right there.
Uh huh. Uh huh.
Nik Mohanlal (26:02)
they're just not getting anything. They're not even in the interview. So, I mean, what's your prediction with the UAE market? Just from what you're seeing.
Anya (26:11)
I am very doom and gloom at the moment about UAE market to be honest. I think people like to hear this but anyway, it is very, very, very tough. The one advice I would give to your friend and everyone that doing it is just do not take things personally because the competition is just insane.
It's insane, the salaries are low, the benefits practically non-existent. There's just not enough jobs for the of people that trying to move here. Because of course, everyone that's already here, that's one group, right? And then we have the whole Europe is coming in, Eastern Europe is here. You know, all the sides, you know, the world is such a mess and we're in such a lovely little bubble of our little middle-e- You know, we're just like, living our lives.
Nik Mohanlal (26:48)
Yeah.
Mmm. Yeah, yeah, It's gonna pop
eventually,
Anya (26:59)
Well, but this is it. it's, you know, you know, this rent is sky high. The, you know, the cost of living is insane now. And so. everyone is fighting for the job. So. I see like fantastic, fantastic people that can't move, as you said, or can't get a job. And the only thing I can say is just not take it personally is just because the reason, you the difference between you and someone else can be so small.
like a bank that this person worked in, So, but like something about the experience where a little bit more relevant to the job and that's it. You know, and as I said, there's just not that many jobs, like there's just not many, because you have all this like this gazillion, you know, if you take just UAE, they're gazillion vendors. All the companies have filled up, you know, nobody really wants to build their own stuff anymore. Like, because I feel like we just, you know, the maturity level has
Nik Mohanlal (27:29)
Mm.
yeah.
Anya (27:50)
matured. know, everyone's kind of so down because now people are like, know, Saudi market, this is where it's at. Yes, but Saudi market is particular as well, because, sometimes I'll speak to a candidate, I'm like, you know, I understand UAE is just not that many jobs or whatever. I will consider Saudi. And I'm like, that's great that you consider it, but Saudi would not consider you. Saudi has a lot of interest now as well. So it's not like, you know.
Nik Mohanlal (28:09)
Mm.
Yeah, yeah.
Anya (28:19)
You don't need to attract talent that much to Saudi anymore. They're kind of going. So it's not, yeah.
Nik Mohanlal (28:23)
Yeah, no, no, for sure. Like
I like that point you bring up actually is the maturity of these teams. And I think as someone who's a job hunter or someone who is trying to move into this space tends to forget about that. And it's not even tend to forget. just, it's a very unique perspective to think about because you as the one person looking for a job, you I want to your tunnel vision. You know, you're going to do everything that you know.
Anya (28:37)
Mm-hmm.
Nik Mohanlal (28:50)
which is networking, LinkedIn, job applications, recruitment. it's especially when it's a tough market like this, it's tough to think about why this is happening. It tends to be very much, and that's why you bring up the point, don't feel like it's a personal attack on yourself or don't feel like you're taking it to heart because there's a lot of things that are changing, which one of them is the maturity levels. SOCs are now starting to establish that level of.
Anya (28:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Nik Mohanlal (29:18)
Okay, we're at a fully operational level. Where can we go next? What's the next best thing for us to do? And if it's most of the time, it's not hiring more people, it's improving the internal talent, right?
Anya (29:18)
even.
Right, right.
Nik Mohanlal (29:30)
training the internal members and what. And that's a good thing as well, right? Because it becomes, it's both good and bad for depending on the person you are, the SOC themselves are finally developing.
Anya (29:31)
That's right.
Yeah.
Nik Mohanlal (29:44)
the UAE cyber strategy is in full force. A lot of people are focusing on training the internal teams, but job hunters and people looking to move to UAE for this are gonna struggle because that bubble is now about to pop. It's finally becoming to the stage where UAE is becoming more of a complex city. It's no longer a, hey, just get a quick job and move out of here. It's becoming way harder to live in now.
Anya (29:45)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
for sure. It's hard to live in and it's hard to move as well because also, as I said, because there's so many people. When I used to speak to companies, I was like, right, okay, let's get someone from wherever it is. Now people are like, okay, I want someone with experience in the Middle East. And because, you know, we are a particular market and you will know, like, we're not like the rest of the world, right? You kind of need to be able to work in this region. And, you know, we have our way. We have our inshallahs
Nik Mohanlal (30:35)
Yeah,
Anya (30:38)
That's right, that's right, that's right.
Nik Mohanlal (30:39)
yeah. That's the currency, not the tax.
Anya (30:45)
No, but you know, again, it's a particular thing and I've seen people, you know, I have a really good example of, well, a friend of mine now, but I was placing him in the UAE and I remember he was like, yeah, but you know, I'm used to it because I used to work with international teams. I'm like, no, no, different. Because he was in Europe, you know, and I was like, we're different.
Nik Mohanlal (31:04)
Yeah.
Anya (31:08)
Well, you know, we'll do it differently here. We'll do. You need to... Yeah.
Nik Mohanlal (31:08)
Yeah.
Do you think it's going to
change ever? Because I've had conversations with people, SOC managers and team managers who are coming from Europe. And they have this, their experience of Europe and European teams is that, it's done properly. This is the process, it's very process driven and this is good. And I agree with that because in UAE, I don't tend to see a lot of that. Is that something that you agree with, you disagree with?
Anya (31:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I it's changing,
for sure. think so. I think it has already changed. As we talked about earlier, even if I look at things how they were done 10 years ago to how they are now, already there are more processes and things are done properly. It definitely changed a lot.
Nik Mohanlal (31:52)
Mm.
Anya (32:02)
But I don't know where it's gonna go, it's really hard to predict. mean, look, so from 2020 it's all been a massive show, you know? So you don't know what's gonna happen in the rest of the world every year. It's like, my God, what's happening now? So who knows, who knows?
Nik Mohanlal (32:12)
Ha ha ha ha.
Yeah, yeah, fair enough, fair enough.
wanna take a step back away from cyber a little bit. Again, back into more about you, right? One of the things I've learned in my time in this industry.
Anya (32:26)
We sure.
Nik Mohanlal (32:33)
is you kind of have to be a passionate person about cyber. You you get told to learn the most thing, have to learn the most, you have to go home and do hack the box or do these things and kind of make cyber your life. That's the message I got. And this is what I tend to see a lot of. as the industry changes and grows, you know, I meet a lot of people such as yourself who aren't completely technical people, you know, you know, I mean, I don't know how confident you are with with pen testing and whatnot, but you know, it's and whether or not that's your interest.
So what is it that kind of takes you outside of cyber? Sometimes cyber security can be really intense.
Anya (33:04)
and
You know what?
Yeah, I mean, look, I'm not a technical person, but I'm very passionate about So cybersecurity takes a lot of my time. You know, as I said, I will listen to cybersecurity podcasts while I walk the dog and then I will read the news and blah, blah. So it's not, you know, I am very passionate about that space. Not just people, but you know, with everything that's going on. I think it's, you know, I think it's cool. So outside of cyber, I'm going to say I have that many.
And you know, this makes me sound really sad, but don't have any interest outside of don't think. I go fishing and I go golf. There you go. That's as far as it goes really. fishing. There you go. And that's it in Fire Cyber enough.
Nik Mohanlal (33:40)
Really?
That's good, because I don't even know how to fish.
This is where the fish comes out of the water and starts talking to you about TI reports. Nice, nice.
Anya (33:49)
There you go, there you go, something like that.
Nik Mohanlal (33:57)
That's a cool point actually, because I recently had a conversation with someone about why they joined cyber. You joined cyber because it was exciting and whatnot, but the premise of it was that it was cool. It's a cool industry to feel like you're in it, whether you're a threat hunter or instant response. It sounds cool. The role sounds cool. And I think that's kind of what drives a lot of people. That also drives me too. When I first started, I wanted to be a
Anya (33:58)
So, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Snug that.
Right, right, right.
Nik Mohanlal (34:28)
I wanted to be a threat hunter because just simply because of the name like that sounds so awesome to me And that was it and I wasn't
Anya (34:30)
Very bad. Because of the cool sass girl. It's Pentesta, wasn't it? Do remember I told you
about my old boss? Anytime I mentioned penetration testing, he still laughs.
Nik Mohanlal (34:45)
That's why I don't want to do it. I don't want to be testing no pens. man, fair enough.
Anya (34:53)
No,
no, no, yes, is. is. I don't know. I found it cool back there and I find it cool still.
Nik Mohanlal (35:08)
Hell yeah, nice. before I wrap things up, want to ask you one last question. What's next for Anya? What's coming next?
Anya (35:09)
That's just me. Mm-hmm. Sure. Tell me.
so for me, what I'd want to do is I'd want to expand our MSSP and the rest of our cybersecurity services into Saudi. I will still be doing recruitment. I think what I'd want to do is concentrate on exec recruitment, just because I've done a lot of it. And to be honest, most of the guys that I've placed 10 years ago are now at C level anyway. Might as well keep this going. But yeah, I think.
Definitely concentrate on Saudi. just, don't know if I told you this, but I came back from Riyadh a couple of weeks ago and that, you know, how it's changed. It's absolutely insane. The last time I was there about four years ago for the first black hat and they, the difference between then and now is amazing. And I can see they're literally like building it. I don't want to compare it. I know nobody likes the comparison, but it is sort of like seeing Dubai growing back in the day, you know? So it's really cool.
Nik Mohanlal (35:54)
Yeah.
Really? Wow.
Anya (36:13)
I
mean, they have their financial center, the Metro line is fantastic. As I said, you know, they're moving really fast. So I'm looking forward to see where that region is going to go. And I guess the regionally, you know, I will never move away from the Middle East and the Middle East is my background and my playground. This is where my business is and I love it. So yeah, definitely staying, but I think expanding on the services and expanding on the offerings, that will be it. That'd be me.
Nik Mohanlal (36:39)
Hell yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much Anya for joining. You've been an awesome guest. And if anyone wants to reach out to you, how can they get in touch?
Anya (36:41)
Yeah, cyber! No worries. No problem.
LinkedIn is fine. will... My email is there. You can share my email address. Another thing is, guys, by the way, I will send the links to you. I did do a YouTube channel about four years ago. It's just about tips on writing CVs and where to find jobs. I know it was four years ago, but the advice still stands. Feel free to use that. And just add Chagypti in there somewhere. There you go. Feel free. Fantastic.
Nik Mohanlal (37:12)
I remember watching that video actually. I'll put them all in the links. I'll put them all on the show notes below. Thank
you again Anya for joining. Appreciate it. See you everyone.
Anya (37:22)
Thank you. Thank you, Nick. Thanks. I appreciate it. It's all right. Cheers. Thank you.
Cheers. Bye-bye.